Is the new pope Latino or Italian?

[somedude61]

Fuck the Pope. Fuck Religion while you are at it.

[SouthernListen]

He's an Italian Argentine American.

[Avery]

Olive oil voice, guinea charm

[TelegramSam]

Just to clarify a bit from a historical perspective, all these notions of race didn't exist until the 1800's. Up through the middle ages, the term "Latins" or in Italian/Spanish Latino was used to describe all Western Christians who used the Roman alphabet (this is pre-Protestant Reformation). So if you were Irish, English, French, whatever, you were a Latin. It was the rise of eugenics coupled with slavery that created the modern concept of "white" and "black". Because the Spanish were so dark due to mixing with the Arab moors who chose to stay and convert to Christianity after the Reconquista as well as mixing with indigenous peoples in Latin America, the catch all term "Hispanic" was created. That is also why Sicilians are so dark, they mixed with the Arabs who invaded the island for 100 years and chose to convert to Christianity when the Italians regained control of the island. The terms Latino and Hispanic have zero genetic meaning, both Jim Caviezel and Manny Ramirez could rightly call themselves Hispanic and Latino, despite having very different ancestry.

[xavier]

my gosh that italian family at the next table is really quite. .

[Xandra]

The pope that quit was just saving his ass-he must've found a little boy to settle down with

[johnnynoname]

Just to clarify a bit from a historical perspective, all these notions of race didn't exist until the 1800's. Up through the middle ages, the term "Latins" or in Italian/Spanish Latino was used to describe all Western Christians who used the Roman alphabet (this is pre-Protestant Reformation). So if you were Irish, English, French, whatever, you were a Latin. It was the rise of eugenics coupled with slavery that created the modern concept of "white" and "black". Because the Spanish were so dark due to mixing with the Arab moors who chose to stay and convert to Christianity after the Reconquista as well as mixing with indigenous peoples in Latin America, the catch all term "Hispanic" was created. That is also why Sicilians are so dark, they mixed with the Arabs who invaded the island for 100 years and chose to convert to Christianity when the Italians regained control of the island. The terms Latino and Hispanic have zero genetic meaning, both Jim Caviezel and Manny Ramirez could rightly call themselves Hispanic and Latino, despite having very different ancestry.

settle down, Chomsky

[SouthernListen]

He's white.

A white Latino, maybe.

[SouthernListen]

Just to clarify a bit from a historical perspective, all these notions of race didn't exist until the 1800's. Up through the middle ages, the term "Latins" or in Italian/Spanish Latino was used to describe all Western Christians who used the Roman alphabet (this is pre-Protestant Reformation). So if you were Irish, English, French, whatever, you were a Latin. It was the rise of eugenics coupled with slavery that created the modern concept of "white" and "black". Because the Spanish were so dark due to mixing with the Arab moors who chose to stay and convert to Christianity after the Reconquista as well as mixing with indigenous peoples in Latin America, the catch all term "Hispanic" was created. That is also why Sicilians are so dark, they mixed with the Arabs who invaded the island for 100 years and chose to convert to Christianity when the Italians regained control of the island. The terms Latino and Hispanic have zero genetic meaning, both Jim Caviezel and Manny Ramirez could rightly call themselves Hispanic and Latino, despite having very different ancestry.

A few problems with the lesson, professor.

1. Slavery existed 5,000 years ago. It was on the wane by the time period you mention, not "rising". There have been many many times more non-black slaves in history than black ones. Rome was built on slavery, as was Greece. Back then you often either had to kill people or enslave them or you'd wind up fighting them again the next year.

2. Hispanic means "speaks spanish". It's used as a catchall phrase in modern parlance as a shorthand rather than typing out "mixed race Spanish/Amerindian" , "mixed african/portugese/dutch who happens to speak spanish, or something along those lines. In the middle ages and before a Spaniard was genetically similar racially to an Italian or a Gaul. That doesn't mean they weren't aware of differences in culture and language. They killed each other for centuries because of it. So while not technically different "races", everyone knows what is meant by the terms. Trying to define the .0001% of people who don't easily fit into these categories we use is pointless.

3. Latino means derived of the Latin language speakers. Again, a catchall phrase subject to exceptions. A person of northern european ancestry raised in Spain might be a spanish speaker but not be "latino" in the common understanding of the word. Again, everyone else seems to know what it means, so why pick nits?

4. The "notions of race" in terms of black and white were perhaps not as evident back then only because the different races rarely came in contact with each other due to the distances and travel technology of the time. It's not like Mexicans were mowing lawns in 1800 England. But an Italian in China was not exactly inconspicuous, nor was a negroid man in Holland, centuries before 1800. What, you think a white guy in Britain in 1066 wouldn't know he was different than a black man, just because he'd never seen one?

5. Eugenics didn't really come around till the 1900's, well after slavery was abolished in all developed nations.

6. Eugenics isn't necessarily about miscegenation (race mixing). You mean segregation, which is only one component and is not always a component at all. It's about keeping literal idiots and those with horrible genetics from overpopulating. It's also not necessarily evil, as its association with those who were evil is mistaken for the theory of improvement of races by humane/voluntary methods. Offering a crack whore $5,000 to get her tubes tied, for example, is not like rounding up gypsies and sending them to death camps. Nor is a cultural preference for same-race marriage and offspring the same as mandatory laws against racially mixed couples.

[TelegramSam]

Hispanic refers to HISPANIOLA, as in the New World. I don't know where you are getting that it simply implies speaking Spanish, as Brazilians are Hispanic and speak Portugese. Also, I don't think modern Europeans invented slavery, but that they put greater emphasis on "black" and "white" in order define one race as worthy of slavery. In ancient Rome, for example, Septimius Severus would have been "black" by modern standards yet he owned many "white" slaves. It's a totally different model, the Greeks and Romans made no distinctions based on race.

I think the bigger point we disagree on is that of the ancient/medieval view of race. A great example is Marco Polo's Travels; at no point does he ever call anyone "black" or "white" despite venturing through most of the known world. He comments that Africans are ugly to be certain, but he has no notion of clearly defined race as you suggest. He refers to all Europeans who are loyal to the Roman Church as "Latins"'; my point isn't that the majority of people don't define "Latin" or "Latino" differently now, but that they are stupid for doing so.

[pontius pilot]

hispanic traditionally referred to those from "hispania," the roman name for the spanish/portuguese peninsula (iberia).

as for the rest of these arguments, i'm too drunk and tired to join in.

[TelegramSam]

hispanic traditionally referred to those from "hispania," the roman name for the spanish/portuguese peninsula (iberia).

as for the rest of these arguments, i'm too drunk and tired to join in.

I looked up the etymology a bit, here is what I found:

Hispanic (adj.)
"pertaining to Spain" (especially ancient Spain) 1580s, from Latin Hispanicus, from Hispania "Iberian Peninsula," from Hispanus "Spaniard" (see Spaniard). Specific application to Spanish-speaking parts of the New World is 1889, American English; especially applied since c.1972 to Spanish-speaking persons of Latin American descent living in U.S.

I had always read that it referred to Hispaniola and came around circa the 1800's, so based on that I guess I'm about half right and half wrong since the meaning changed.

EDIT: Also, this just shows how nonsensical the phrase "Hispanic" is. If it refers to Hispania/Iberia, then the Brazilians/Portugese are Hispanic. If it refers to Spanish speakers, then they aren't.

[FlaFlaFlunkie]

Born in Buenos Aries, so he's South American, but his ethnicity is Italian, so he's an Italian-Argentinian.

Basically, another European dude, but born in South America.

[crazypreacher]

Caucasian. Talks like Fred the Elephant Boy.

[FlaFlaFlunkie]

EDIT: Also, this just shows how nonsensical the phrase "Hispanic" is. If it refers to Hispania/Iberia, then the Brazilians/Portugese are Hispanic. If it refers to Spanish speakers, then they aren't.

If you think about it some more, so is the term "Latin."

In NJ, we've got lots of people of "Latin" descent: Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, etc. and there's this "catch-all" grouping, called "Latino/Latina."

We don't call the Irish, Italians, English, Germans, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc., living here "Europeans." We call them 'white,' which also makes no sense since many Italians and Greeks are dark-skinned.