Krugman: U.S. Needs Death Panels, Sales Taxes.

[I invented that]

did the gold standard contribute to the great depression?

[I invented that]

Answer the last two questions as well. If you're not certain, give us your best guess.



EDIT: This is really the crux of the matter.

my ouija board is broken.

[Goo For You]

we may as well be discussing theology

It gets difficult, I know. Come back to that post after a good night's sleep. It makes more sense when your brain is rested.

you like to lay out your numbers on the table like so many tea leaves, then try to predict the future.

I'm perfectly fine with the future being uncertain; as you can see, I've just argued fiscal stimulus is a good policy to implement even under uncertainty.

did the gold standard contribute to the great depression?

There's a very strong argument that it caused it. Gold flows out of US caused a huge downward pressure on prices, which may have been a big factor in triggering the stock market collapse.

France's monetary policy (i.e. them acquiring vast quantities of gold and sterilizing it), in particular, played a big role in causing a 30% deflation worldwide during those years.

Take a minute to think about the implications of that number.

[I invented that]

There's a very strong argument that it caused it. Gold flows out of US caused a huge downward pressure on prices, which may have been a big factor in triggering the stock market collapse.

in a previous post you attributed the great depression to austerity and a tight money supply.

[RiotGrip]

can you prove it helped?

If you think that rather quick uptick was from something else, please discuss otherwise this is more data than you've provided in the whole thread.

you like to lay out your numbers on the table like so many tea leaves, then try to predict the future.

You like to say I disagree with this because it may make the left look better, then you provide absolutely zero evidence of anything toward your claim or against your detractos' claim. You just ask for "proof" however your burden of proof is unreasonably high or just non existent. You've gotten your ass handed to you in a royal fashion and you've not made any statements as to what we could have done better or as to any alternate economic plans that could have played out better.

It is Ok to be average, you run into trouble by believing you are something far greater than average.

[RiotGrip]

in a previous post you attributed the great depression to austerity and a tight money supply.

Um if a lot of gold flowed out of the U.S. and it caused a potential 30% deflation--that would equal "tight money supply" since all our money had to be backed by gold.

I guess this it what it may have looked like if Appollo (you) didn't die after two rounds with the russian.

[Goo For You]

in a previous post you attributed the great depression to austerity and a tight money supply.

Correct. Under a gold standard, gold outflows force a contraction in the money supply (and there's very little the central bank can do about it).

If the aforementioned 30% of US gold reserves flowed out of the country during that time, 1) the amount of paper money convertible to gold, 2) wages, and 3) prices of goods, services and stocks all had to be brought down the same amount.

Name an economist who doesn't think that leads to a collapse.

(With austerity I meant insufficient monetary + fiscal stimuli after the damage was done. Other foolish FDR policies are irrelevant to this point.)

[I invented that]

If you think that rather quick uptick was from something else, please discuss otherwise this is more data than you've provided in the whole thread.



You like to say I disagree with this because it may make the left look better, then you provide absolutely zero evidence of anything toward your claim or against your detractos' claim. You just ask for "proof" however your burden of proof is unreasonably high or just non existent. You've gotten your ass handed to you in a royal fashion and you've not made any statements as to what we could have done better or as to any alternate economic plans that could have played out better.

It is Ok to be average, you run into trouble by believing you are something far greater than average.

now show me the numbers without the stimulus.

[RiotGrip]

now show me the numbers without the stimulus.

How about you just show me any article by any economist that predicts what they would have been. Show me any data or scholarly article that suggests the economy would have turned around on its own at that same point.

[Goo For You]

now show me the numbers without the stimulus.

Check mate.

[RiotGrip]

[I invented that]

Check mate.

You give numbers from 1920-1940 and claim checkmate? That's some convoluted logic.

[I invented that]

Um if a lot of gold flowed out of the U.S. and it caused a potential 30% deflation--that would equal "tight money supply" since all our money had to be backed by gold.

I guess this it what it may have looked like if Appollo (you) didn't die after two rounds with the russian.

Tight money refers to fed policy. Nice try though.

[Goo For You]

You give numbers from 1920-1940 and claim checkmate? That's some convoluted logic.

You mean this mountain of evidence and argumentation did nothing to convince you?

The logic is there, you're just doing everything in your power to refuse seeing it...



EDIT2: There's an amazing number of parallels between the 1929 and 2008 collapses. Which part of this argument still confuses you and how?

Tight money refers to fed policy. Nice try though.

RiotGrip is absolutely correct.




EDIT:

Tell me, do you consider yourself a reasonable person?

If you do, how would you define unreasonableness?

[RiotGrip]

Tight money refers to fed policy. Nice try though.

Sorry, it doesn't. When you run a gold standard economy, the amount of money available is dictated by the amount of gold you have and the value of that gold. If you loose gold, and then that gold is worth less money--that equals a severe tightening of money supply. Since the Feds were not alchemists during the great depression, they could not create gold. Read Goo for you's post, he says basically the same thing I did only a bit more eloquently.

[I invented that]

Check mate.

ok, i give up, gdp numbers from 1920-1940 prove the 2009 stimulus worked

[Goo For You]

Are you unable to consider multiple pieces of evidence at the same time?

Can you give us examples of situations from your lifetime where you believed in something, and someone convinced you to change that belief? Has this ever happened to you?

[RiotGrip]

ok, i give up, gdp numbers from 1920-1940 prove the 2009 stimulus worked

No you give up because despite hours of searching you can't find one credible piece of evidence to say it didn't work. You've just heard it called "the failed stimulus" so many times you were sure that it didn't do anything.

I mean you were at least able to find one idiot to say that there was no budget surplus under Clinton. Funny how there isn't anyone who wants to put there name behind an article saying that the economy would be better or the same without the 2009 stimulus.

[I invented that]

the government throws a trillion dollars into the economy and you brag about the gdp going up and then use it as proof it helped the economy. bfd, since government spending is part of gdp, it better go up.

[Goo For You]

Tell us what kind of an argument you would consider convincing, and we will try our best to oblige. So far we have addressed all your concerns, and cornered you from all angles you have presented. How can your attitude thus far be characterized as anything but unreasonable?



EDIT: If a pollster asked you "on a scale from 0-10, how reasonable would you say you are", how would you answer?