Krugman: U.S. Needs Death Panels, Sales Taxes.

[I invented that]

All health insurance companies were required to run as non-profit companies until the 70's. The Lewin group was bought and paid for by the insurance companies, they also shut up the second the public option was taken off the table. If competing with the govt is easier than competing with the private sector, why did the Lewin group conclude that insurance companies would loose so much money?

so, the insurance companies are running the government?

[RiotGrip]

so, the insurance companies are running the government?

They had more say than any one member of congress as to what went into the healthcare bill. Think of it this way, rich people pay a healthcare tax for being rich, uninsured people may pay a tax/fine for not having insurance, employers pay a tax for not insuring everyone, medical equipment companies must charge a tax on goods now. Do insurance companies pay a fine for raising premiums?--no. In fact the law now says most people have to purchase insurance, and an insurance company can provide care in the now mandatory state run exchanges unless a state chooses a single payer system or lets the federal govt set up the exchange. Insurance companies are guaranteed more customers under Obamacare.

[Goo For You]

i thought the krugster was a proponent of "the debt doesn't matter" philosophy because it's money we owe ourselves. now krugman admits there is a point where the debt will matter and at that point we must increase taxes. if the debt doesn't matter now it shouldn't matter in the future either because it'll still be money we owe to ourselves.

First, the level of debt can affect productivity (even though there's very little evidence of this), and therefore is something that needs to be taken into account if, like Krugman, you foresee big downward pressures on demand. (The point about debt not mattering at all is in the context of "fiscal cliffs", which simply do not exist.) Second, you're reading too much into his statement if you think this is his primary concern; I don't think I've ever heard him say "let's not go more into debt"; I think he's talking about tax increases mostly because he thinks he can rally more support for them. Third, the natural and constructive pro-market right-wing response is to call for open borders (i.e. to counter ageing with immigration), instead of bitching and moaning about the usual GOP concerns that are, as always, only marginally relevant.

[I invented that]

They had more say than any one member of congress as to what went into the healthcare bill. Think of it this way, rich people pay a healthcare tax for being rich, uninsured people may pay a tax/fine for not having insurance, employers pay a tax for not insuring everyone, medical equipment companies must charge a tax on goods now. Do insurance companies pay a fine for raising premiums?--no. In fact the law now says most people have to purchase insurance, and an insurance company can provide care in the now mandatory state run exchanges unless a state chooses a single payer system or lets the federal govt set up the exchange. Insurance companies are guaranteed more customers under Obamacare.

duh, maybe that's because insurance companies are the ones that sell insurance. if the government forced citizens to buy bicycles the bicycle industry would benefit.

[I invented that]

I don't think I've ever heard him say "let's not go more into debt"

exactly, he states debt doesn't matter because it's money we owe to ourselves.


“I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it.”
― Paul Krugman

the institution he's talking about is the government, more specifically the irs. he is pro wealth redistribution and his preferred tool is taxing the haves and giving it to the have nots. some people exert more time and effort pursuing their dreams while others coast and expect to reap similar rewards, what liberals really want is to stifle competition because competition produces winners and losers. when the rewards are taxed in a punitive manner there is less incentive to be a winner. to krugman, tax collection isn't about funds to operate a budget it's about redistribution of wealth because the debt doesn't really matter.

[newcastlefan]

so, the insurance companies are running the government?

maybe to the extent that most are owned by the banks?

[RiotGrip]

duh, maybe that's because insurance companies are the ones that sell insurance. if the government forced citizens to buy bicycles the bicycle industry would benefit.

I'm glad you agree with my original answer of how a public option would lower healthcare costs.

[Goo For You]

exactly, he states debt doesn't matter because it's money we owe to ourselves.

Read my post again three times and you'll understand what he means when he says it. And if you have questions about what I wrote, please ask and try to be specific.

“I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it.”
― Paul Krugman

In the paragraph below this quote you try to paint this very reasonable, restrained, and commonly held position as radical. Doing so you come off as a complete kook.

[HeinousMark]

the institution he's talking about is the government, more specifically the irs. he is pro wealth redistribution and his preferred tool is taxing the haves and giving it to the have nots. some people exert more time and effort pursuing their dreams while others coast and expect to reap similar rewards, what liberals really want is to stifle competition because competition produces winners and losers. when the rewards are taxed in a punitive manner there is less incentive to be a winner. to krugman, tax collection isn't about funds to operate a budget it's about redistribution of wealth because the debt doesn't really matter.

We hear this a lot nowadays.... How the dedicated, tireless, hard-working billionaires roll up their sleeves and break rocks 14 hours per day, eat bologna and Ramen and save their pennies in a jar..... while the bad old parasites of society ride around in limousines eating caviar and smoking crack, all on the backs of the aforementioned, and simply refuse to work at all the great living wage jobs with room to grow and great benefits, that are desperate for workers.

I dunno, I just think if you enjoy 100x of the benefits of living in this country, maybe you should pay a little more than someone who maintains a subsistence (and usually is working their ass off for even that). Bazillionaires tend to get richer and richer not because they perform Herculean feats of labor and genius, but because they have shittons of money, and that money does the work for them; money makes more money.

I used to scoff at the whole New World Order paranoia, but the fact is, we are rapidly becoming a feudal society, where a very few individuals/corporations, will own and control EVERYTHING, and the rest of us will be peasants fighting over a moldy potato. And it will all be "legal"... It's just hard for me to believe the "Founding Fathers" intended that, and it doesn't seem like it's gonna be very nice for the vast majority of us...

[stripes]

I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it.”
― Paul Krugman

again another false argument, i like how him stating the obvious paints the other side as having the opposite view on all his points...its like the whole family values declarations by the right a few years ago...gawd dam stoopud fuckers.

or like the typical washington bill loaded with so much shit that doesnt jive like $10million to study the snail darter & $50 million to support veteran healthcare...if you vote against the pork, you're also the bastid from hell that hates veterans...washington sucks & so does krugman with his hairbrained ideas to sell books. fuck him.

[I invented that]

I'm glad you agree with my original answer of how a public option would lower healthcare costs.

so, you approve of the government mandating profit levels for businesses?

[RiotGrip]

so, you approve of the government mandating profit levels for businesses?

Quit trying to change the subject, I never said I approved of govt. mandating profit levels. I stated that a public option could have triggered most of the current reforms legislated in the health care bill through sheer competition. I would have much rather seen a public option than the current healthcare bill. The reality is that most insurance companies couldn't dream of a 15% profit per customer if they had a public option to compete with.

Since we are asking questions, did you agree with insurance companies dropping sicker customers to maintain higher profits?

[Goo For You]

I used to scoff at the whole New World Order paranoia, but the fact is, we are rapidly becoming a feudal society, where a very few individuals/corporations, will own and control EVERYTHING, and the rest of us will be peasants fighting over a moldy potato. And it will all be "legal"... It's just hard for me to believe the "Founding Fathers" intended that, and it doesn't seem like it's gonna be very nice for the vast majority of us...

When we look at the world as a whole, we see that social mobility is vastly higher than it has ever been in human history. I'm afraid there's a large amount of truth in the Republican "bootstraps" mentality in the (strictly confined) sense that an alarming number of people are failing to appreciate the unwritten rules of global free-market capitalism, i.e. the only even remotely reliable system of progress known to man. These people are simply taking for granted that wages should be going up, unemployment should be going down, and more interesting and fun jobs should be coming available to everyone; and when they see that this isn't happening in their country or community, they say "fuck everything" and spend the productive years of their lives reading about conspiracy theories.

Unlike the Republicans, however, I'm not big on moralizing. I just wish people would stop watching those godforsaken Alex Jones videos and start learning about the world from more reliable sources. I'll guarantee you it's just as fun -- and who the fuck knows, it may even lead to good things down the road!

again another false argument, i like how him stating the obvious paints the other side as having the opposite view on all his points...its like the whole family values declarations by the right a few years ago...gawd dam stoopud fuckers.

Did you even bother reading how I invented that interpreted those words?

[stripes]

When we look at the world as a whole, we see that social mobility is vastly higher than it has ever been in human history. I'm afraid there's a large amount of truth in the Republican "bootstraps" mentality in the (strictly confined) sense that an alarming number of people are failing to appreciate and to play by the unwritten "rules" of global free-market capitalism, i.e. the only even remotely reliable system of progress known to man. These people are simply taking for granted that wages should be going up, unemployment should be going down, and more interesting and fun jobs should be coming available to everyone; and when they see that this isn't happening in their country or community, they say "fuck everything" and spend the productive years of their lives reading about conspiracy theories.

Unlike the Republicans, though, I'm not big on moralizing. I just wish people would stop watching those godforsaken Alex Jones videos and start learning about the world from more reliable sources. I'll guarantee you it's just as fun.




Did you even bother reading how I invented that interpreted those words?

nah, just making my own point, i dont read shit.

[HeinousMark]

When we look at the world as a whole, we see that social mobility is vastly higher than it has ever been in human history. I'm afraid there's a large amount of truth in the Republican "bootstraps" mentality in the (strictly confined) sense that an alarming number of people are failing to appreciate the unwritten rules of global free-market capitalism, i.e. the only even remotely reliable system of progress known to man. These people are simply taking for granted that wages should be going up, unemployment should be going down, and more interesting and fun jobs should be coming available to everyone; and when they see that this isn't happening in their country or community, they say "fuck everything" and spend the productive years of their lives reading about conspiracy theories.

Unlike the Republicans, however, I'm not big on moralizing. I just wish people would stop watching those godforsaken Alex Jones videos and start learning about the world from more reliable sources. I'll guarantee you it's just as fun -- and who the fuck knows, it may even lead to good things down the road!




Did you even bother reading how I invented that interpreted those words?

I tend to agree, a little. But the fact remains that money/power is a big pie. A small number of people have acquired 99% of that pie, and they have no intention of giving it up, and they still want more. There will be no more pies, ever, there is only one. It used to be shared more equitably, and at this point, it looks like it never will be again, short of a massive revolution. A few people will make it, they'll bust their ass, be smart and adaptive, and above all, lucky... but for the rest, there will simply be nothing but long, hard, drudgery, will very little to show for it, or sucking on the Government tit, however much longer that is an option...THEN things are really gonna get interesting........

[MatthewT]

What is the difference between a death panel and cutting Medicare to the point where a senior cant get all their necessary treatment?

we have both now

[MatthewT]

I tend to agree, a little. But the fact remains that money/power is a big pie. A small number of people have acquired 99% of that pie, and they have no intention of giving it up, and they still want more. There will be no more pies, ever, there is only one. It used to be shared more equitably, and at this point, it looks like it never will be again, short of a massive revolution. A few people will make it, they'll bust their ass, be smart and adaptive, and above all, lucky... but for the rest, there will simply be nothing but long, hard, drudgery, will very little to show for it, or sucking on the Government tit, however much longer that is an option...THEN things are really gonna get interesting........

people don't give up power; it has to be wrested from them

[HeinousMark]

people don't give up power; it has to be wrested from them

"Some men will rob you with a six-gun....some with a fountain pen" ~ Ballad Of Pretty Boy Floyd, by Woodie Guthrie

[I invented that]

First, the level of debt can affect productivity (even though there's very little evidence of this), and therefore is something that needs to be taken into account if, like Krugman, you foresee big downward pressures on demand.

i have a question. first you say there's little evidence of debt affecting productivity, then you say krugman has a ouija board that tells him when enough downward pressure is affecting his model. how can a variable that isn't proven to have any affect be used to massage the economy?

I don't think I've ever heard him say "let's not go more into debt";

the krugster is a big supporter of debt, i don't know if debt is the answer?

I think he's talking about tax increases mostly because he thinks he can rally more support for them.

if ya took all the income of the middle class, would it put a dent in the debt?

Third, the natural and constructive pro-market right-wing response is to call for open borders (i.e. to counter ageing with immigration), instead of bitching and moaning about the usual GOP concerns that are, as always, only marginally relevant.

now ya sound like a kook.

[I invented that]

Quit trying to change the subject, did you agree with insurance companies dropping sicker customers to maintain higher profits?

no. do you think the government can insure everybody at a 15% profit level