Teacher for 1 year... paid 13 years for nothing.

[Samurai]

It's assholes like this that keep education in this country in the toilet. Apparently NY has other, more important things to do like regulate the size of soda cups than to monitor the DOE.

BUT PLEASE...do not lump all teachers in with asswipes like this guy.

MOST teachers across the country are treated like shit...whether they are in a union or not. They are underpaid for the job they do (which most of the time includes parenting shit that should be done at home) and they are given next to no resources with which to do it.

I'll use myself as an example. I am a middle school teacher in AZ (ranked 49th in education BTW). I'm in my 4th year of teaching. I have been rated a "highly effective" teacher for 3 straight years (the highest ranking possible)...yet there is ZERO chance of me getting a raise. My district has been on a pay freeze for 7 years...and will be for the foreseeable future. That means I am being paid as a 1st year teacher...and will continue to be paid as a 1st year teacher for at least the next few years. There is no overtime, there are no bonuses etc. I am REQUIRED to not only have a college degree, but to continue my education to keep my certification...yet when the idea of a raise for teachers is brought up at district meetings...the higher ups literally laugh.

Then you get to the lack of resources. Not only do I have 35+ students in EVERY SINGLE CLASS...I have to provide a lot of materials out of my own pocket. I have 1 set of textbooks...the rest is on me to provide. I teach Social Studies (American History)....I asked for the school to purchase me a wall map for 279$ and they told me I would have to pay for it myself.

I coached football the last 3 years (no longer). We had 65+ kids on the team (7th and 8th graders) so we had 4 coaches. We got a stipend of 800 bucks BEFORE taxes for the entire season. We went undefeated 2 years in a row and won back to back league championships...then what happened the next year? Our district told us that they would only pay for 1 coach....so we would have to take the 800 bucks BEFORE taxes and split it between the four of us....or quit....the choice was ours. Keep in mind...we were putting in at LEAST 150 hours+ to coach those kids and run the program. They told us we would get 200 bucks before taxes.....so needless to say my school no longer has a football program.

I guess my point is this....You only EVER hear stories about teachers in states like NY and CA that abuse the system and seem to be making all this money....so people pile right on and bash teachers as some sort of mooching, money grubbers that don't work hard. The reality of the situation is that the LARGE MAJORITY of teachers across the country work extremely hard, doing a job that most people COULD NOT/WOULD NOT do (find me people that will go to college for 4 years, get out and get locked into a 30k a year salary with no chance for advancement AND be willing to take on 120+ students per day). Most teachers put in WAY more than a standard 40 hour work week, with no option for overtime or anything like that. Most teachers are severely underpaid for what they do. Teachers make THE LEAST amount of money in the entire system of education...even though they do BY FAR the most work. You will have a teacher who works with hundreds of students per day...actually TEACHING them things....and that teacher makes 1/4 of what the district PR person makes....or 1/3 of what the district benefits coordinator makes....or 1/10th what the superintendent makes....and none of those people ever see a child in their entire day.

Anyway, you can tell I'm passionate about this topic. It kills me to hear people pile on to teachers and further this idea that they are leeches. If someone brings up the idea of cutting cops, or firefighters....they are demonized because those people are "heroes". You bring up the idea of cutting teachers and people can't champion that idea fast enough. Teachers serve a VITALLY important role for the future of our country. We should be doing everything we can as a nation to keep great teachers, weed out and get rid of bad teachers, and incentivizing the profession so that the best and brightest people actually WANT to become teachers and dedicate their professional lives to helping kids. Then and only then will our education system "work".

A few questions for you AzMan:
How hard is for a lousy teacher in your district to get fired? How often does it happen?
What percentage of school funding in your district goes to teacher pay and classroom equipment vs. what percentage goes to administrative overhead?
Among your peers in/around your year group, what percentage receive "highly effective" ratings?
How involved is the average parent in their children's education (subjective, I know)?

[FlaFlaFlunkie]

Thanks! It's a topic that gets me fired up as you can tell. The worst is when you get these asshole pundits...whos entire job is to go on TV/Radio and spout bullshit...telling the country that teachers are "greedy".

For every one piece of shit like the guy in the OP....there are 100 teachers around the country busting their asses for peanuts. Do not believe the media (specifically the "right leaning" media) when they tell you the problem with the education system is the teachers!! 90% or more of teachers are doing the right things...busting their asses every day to try to improve the lives of your kids!

If we want to improve education in this country...we should actually be listening to the concerns of CLASSROOM teachers. Not the head of a union...not a "teacher" that works in an office...or for some special interest group..and not some administrator who got out of the classroom as quickly as they could so they could make more money. Go down to your local public school...find a teacher that actually just finished TEACHING a class...and ask them how to improve the school. I guarantee that you will hear MUCH different answers than what are spouted by the unions/administrators.

It seems the only time we get to hear from them is after a shooting.

[Spazzmatazz]

The way some of you partisan dumbasses suck the nuts of your particular party line is pretty funny. Sad but funny because you don't fucking get it.

[stripes]

more gubment will fix this

[FlaFlaFlunkie]

<--watching Waiting for Superman on Netflix right now.

[Howards Wig]

BUT PLEASE...do not lump all teachers in with asswipes like this guy.

Here is the problem: my greatest frustration is, as a parent, my only control over the school system is to pull my kids out of public school and go private. The public school system is unwilling to change, but will forever tell us they are putting the children first. The reality is, they are holding the children hostage.

I believe in public schools. I think they are the cornerstone of our society. Get them right, everything becomes easy. The problem is, my kids are generally taught by teachers who were C students with no passion for the job. I see great, new teachers who are smart and have passion, and they are literally unemployed because the old guard who stopped caring cannot be removed. They show up 5 minutes before class and leave 5 minutes after class.

You are probably a great teacher. There are many more out there. However, with the unions, and with proven decay in the system something has to change. With the union in charge, there will never be change. Their job is to make life better for the teachers, and impact on the children is secondary.

[azman5103]

A few questions for you AzMan:
How hard is for a lousy teacher in your district to get fired? How often does it happen?
What percentage of school funding in your district goes to teacher pay and classroom equipment vs. what percentage goes to administrative overhead?
Among your peers in/around your year group, what percentage receive "highly effective" ratings?
How involved is the average parent in their children's education (subjective, I know)?

Not sure I can really answer all those questions but I'll give it a shot.

#1- Its fairly difficult for a "lousy" teacher to get fired mid year, because there is usually no one to replace them. If they do something like touch a kid or something way out of line like that..then they would be gone right away. But if they just suck at their job...the more likely scenario is that they will not be offered a contract the next year. I have seen that happen with 3 people in my now 3 1/2 years of teaching. They were not offered contracts because they had done a terrible job.

Also, you HAVE to figure in what makes a teacher "lousy". It CANNOT be based solely on something like a standardized test score.. especially in a teachers first couple of years. A big part of teaching is learning how to take your knowledge of a subject, and turn that into something that students can identify with. Most "lousy" teachers, at least early on, have their biggest problems with classroom management and discipline They let the students walk all over them and you get situations where the inmates are running the asylum. No one learns anything. Real world classroom interaction and management are THE biggest things that they DON'T teach you in college..so a lot of people struggle with it early on. If a teacher is dedicated, and wants to get better...most districts will give you at least a couple years to "learn on the job" and get better in those areas. I actually think thats fair, because like I said..its a unique situation and takes classroom experience.

#2- I honestly don't know. It sure seems like too much goes to administrative overhead. All I know is that we don't get raises, we don't get any money to spend on supplies or materials, and we have increased the ammount that families have to pay for extra curricular stuff. (Football went from a 25$ fee in my first year to a 75$ fee in my 3rd year).

#3- Again, I can't answer 100% because I'm not privy to other people's evaluations. I will say that its pretty obvious if a teacher is passionate about their job. IMO you HAVE to be really knowledgeable and passionate about your subject....and you HAVE to enjoy working with kids. If you have those two things the other parts can be learned through experience. Like I said...a lot of teachers struggle with classroom management and discipline and that effects EVERYTHING. I will also say that if a teacher is busting their ass...it would be pretty hard to NOT be rated as highly effective. If you are actively trying to improve your performance...you will. If you are fine with being "average" then you will be. I think thats the same in most professions though.

#4- Overall...not very. Generally speaking...the "good kids"...the honors students and the students that are involved in sports/clubs/activities have really involved parents. When we have conferences...I can always guarantee I will get more parents of "A" students showing up then I will students with "D's and F's". The problem is that the "bad kids"...the kids that don't give a shit, fail every class, always get in trouble...are the ones that take up a majority of our time as teachers. We will have meeting after meeting to deal with a kid thats failing every class. Make a behavior plan, come up with dozens of ways for them to raise their grades, etc....and it rarely does any good because the parents don't give a shit. You will get parents that literally show up to a meeting and say "I can't do anything...what are you (teachers) going to do"....or "My kid doesn't do his homework, and when I ask him to he gets mad, slams his door and plays Xbox all night....what should I do?". There are times when you want to smash the parents in the face and say "DONT YOU REALIZE YOU'RE 90% OF THE PROBLEM"....but we can't do that.

The sad part is while we are having those 20 meetings about the "bad kids"...the REALLY good kids...the ones that have an incredibly bright future...they get left alone. The attitude is "Well, they are passing classes and not getting in trouble...so they aren't who we should be concerned about".

It would be so much better....for everyone....if schools were able to focus on the kids doing the right things. Maybe private schools can...but public schools have to take everyone. If we were able to call up a parent and say "You're kid has failed every class for 3 straight semesters, they are a disruption to everyone else in the classroom, and they have been in the principals office 8 times this year....THEY"RE GONE. Take your kid somewhere else...we don't tolerate that stuff here"...the production of the school as a whole would go WAY up.

If we were able to put that responsibility right back on the parents and say "Your kid can't attend this school because you are not doing your job as a parent"...we would start to see major changes.

Anyway..I know these posts are getting long and rambling...but those are the best answers I can give.

[FlaFlaFlunkie]

It would be so much better....for everyone....if schools were able to focus on the kids doing the right things. Maybe private schools can...but public schools have to take everyone. If we were able to call up a parent and say "You're kid has failed every class for 3 straight semesters, they are a disruption to everyone else in the classroom, and they have been in the principals office 8 times this year....THEY"RE GONE. Take your kid somewhere else...we don't tolerate that stuff here"...the production of the school as a whole would go WAY up.

If a child is that disruptive and having that many discipline problems, can't you get social services involved? Sounds to me like there's probably something going on in the home (or rather, nothing going on in the home, at least in terms of handling a child who is obviously acting out).

A social worker can tell the parent to get the kid's shit together (or the parents' shit together, depending).

[azman5103]

Here is the problem: my greatest frustration is, as a parent, my only control over the school system is to pull my kids out of public school and go private. The public school system is unwilling to change, but will forever tell us they are putting the children first. The reality is, they are holding the children hostage.

I believe in public schools. I think they are the cornerstone of our society. Get them right, everything becomes easy. The problem is, my kids are generally taught by teachers who were C students with no passion for the job. I see great, new teachers who are smart and have passion, and they are literally unemployed because the old guard who stopped caring cannot be removed. They show up 5 minutes before class and leave 5 minutes after class.

You are probably a great teacher. There are many more out there. However, with the unions, and with proven decay in the system something has to change. With the union in charge, there will never be change. Their job is to make life better for the teachers, and impact on the children is secondary.

I can see your point to a degree...but let me raise a couple points.

I highly doubt all your kids teachers were "C Students with no passion for the job". I just think that's an unfair generalization...but lets say it's true. Here would be by points.

#1- What does the profession of teaching do to lure in "A" students? If you smart and passionate and capable....you have options. Why would you choose teaching? The pay? The prestige? The support from the community? I mentioned this in my other point...but the way the system is set up now, there is very little reason for the "best and brightest" to become teachers. You are TOLD that you SHOULD do it because you like working with kids...and you want to make a difference in their futures...but you ARE NOT treated like a professional. There is not other profession I can think of where you are expected to work for the benefit of the community and if you ask to be compensated you are demonized. I don't know how many times I have sat in meetings and heard a district administrator tell a room full of teachers "We don't do this job for the money". Yes you're right....its not ALL about the money...but until you treat teachers like professionals...people who have options but CHOOSE to become teachers...you are not going to attract the cream of the crop.

They flat out tell you..."If you want to make any money in education you need to get out of the classroom and into administration". That is the root of the problem right there. People that are smart and passionate...BUT ALSO want to earn a decent living, and provide for their own families are not incentivized to stay in the classroom.

#2- Teachers are not showing up 5 mins before class and leaving 5 min afterwards. Teachers spend an ungodly amount of time in meetings and dealing with bullshit that really has nothing to do with teaching kids. Plus you are not aware of the time they have spent working outside of school. I know that I spend AT LEAST 2 hours every day working on school stuff while I am not at school. I might be writing lesson plans or grading or even "rehearsing" my lectures and lessons for the next day. Teachers do not have the option to collect overtime...so yea a lot of them leave the school and do their work from home.

Yes I'm sure there are a lot of "lazy" teachers that seem to have lost their passion....but I would bet that those are long-time teachers that have had their passion beat out of them. You work for 20 years...being underpaid all those years. You show up everyday and deal with kids that have NO respect for teachers and treat them like shit. You deal with parents who are raising these little shits....but still somehow want to blame YOU for their kids problems. You go to meeting after meeting where your school/district tells you all the additional things you are going to be asked to do....and then in the same sentence tells you all the cuts that are ALSO going to be made. You then go home are turn on the TV and you hear the national media saying that teachers are "greedy" and "overpaid" and "lazy"....and that the problems with the education system are that the TEACHERS are not held accountable enough!!

It zaps the passion out of you pretty damn quick. Teachers are the least respected profession in the country IMO. We are expected to work for "the good of the community"...and then get shit on constantly by that same community.

I 100% agree that public schools are the cornerstone of our society...and yes changes need to be made. But people need to realize that expectations need to be raised across the board!! Raising the expectations on teachers is fine....as long as we are allowed to raise the expectations for students AND THEIR PARENTS!! If you want to have good schools....you have to fill them with good people. That of course means good teachers....but it also means good kids. Why are private schools consistently better than public? BECAUSE THEY DON'T LET EVERYONE IN!! If we were allowed to screen the students enrolling at our school and turn kids away...I guarantee I could make that public school shine!

[Nemo]

Same writer different story from 3 years ago.





http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/l...7uiZjmfrTAgTxM






Taxpayers are on the hook for more than $540,000 a year in salaries for six rubber-room teachers who have been legally cleared to return to class -- but will never go back because the schools chancellor believes they're too dangerous.

All six public-school teachers have been benched for years over alleged sexual misconduct.

Overall, the city Department of Education has put some 550 fully paid teachers in limbo, crammed into "rubber rooms" as they wait for their misconduct cases to be adjudicated, costing taxpayers $30 million a year.

But these six have either completed their punishments or had their cases dismissed -- sometimes on technicalities -- and remain on the payroll. The DOE says such tenured teachers are almost impossible to fire.

The Post recently exposed the misdeeds of two teachers exiled to rubber rooms "at the chancellor's discretion."

Typing teacher Alan Rosenfeld, 64, pulled in $100,049 a year while he practiced law and oversaw his $7 million in real-estate properties. A DOE arbitrator had suspended him for a week for lewdness, telling one eighth-grader, "You have a sexy body,"

Francisco Olivares, 60, rakes in $94,154 a year. He allegedly impregnated a 16-year-old he first met when she was 13 at IS 61 in Corona, Queens. He was also accused of molesting three girls. His criminal conviction was overturned on a technicality.

Joining them on the dishonor roll is computer teacher George Addison, 40, who makes $80,695 a year. He was accused of allegedly shoving his hand down the pants of a 15-year-old special-ed pupil in 2003. Years after his criminal case was dismissed, he still hasn't picked up piece of chalk.

Music teacher Aryeh Eller, 43, first appeared on DOE radar in 1998 when a Hillcrest HS student complained about the way he hugged her and made suggestive comments. He told another pupil, "You have a nice ass."

But officials failed to act, according to a report by then-Special Schools Investigator Ed Stancik, who called it a "missed opportunity to remove a problem teacher from the system."

Eller returned to the classroom, only to be accused a year later of becoming infatuated with a student, telling her "she would make a good wife."

He was exiled to the rubber room in 2003.

DOE spokeswoman Ann Forte said, "The department tried to terminate this teacher, but the arbitrator dismissed the case on a technicality. The chancellor was not willing to put him back in a classroom."

Other members of the dirty half-dozen include guidance counselor Radharaman Upadhyaya, who collects $102,852 a year despite having served a three-day suspension for failing to report his arrest for alleged sexual abuse of a student at his home; and science instructor Wayne Miller, who pulls down $78,039 a year after he was arrested for allegedly sexually assaulting a child, sources said. His case was dismissed.



In detention

The following educators were legally cleared to return to the classroom after facing accusations of wrongdoing but remain idle in “rubber rooms” at the chancellor’s discretion, at a cost to taxpayers of millions.

ALAN ROSENFELD

Typing, IS 347, Queens

Got a wrist slap for making lewd comments. Since 2001, he has been overseeing a $7.8 million real-estate portfolio and his law practice in the rubber room.

Salary: $100,049

RADHARAMAN UPADHYAYA

Guidance counselor, Long Island City HS, Queens

Served a three-day suspension after he was accused of fondling a learning-disabled student at his home. A witness was found not credible. In a rubber room since 2003.

Salary: $102,852

ARYEH ELLER

Music, Hillcrest HS, Queens, Admitted making lewd comments, but an arbitrator said he was not informed of his rights. In a rubber room since 2003.

Salary: $85,426

WAYNE MILLER

Biology, Jamaica HS, Queens, In a rubber room since 2002, he was accused of sexually assaulting a child, but the alleged victim recanted the allegation, sources said.

Salary: $78,039

FRANCISCO OLIVARES

Math, IS 61, Queens, Allegedly impregnated and married a 16-year-old student. He allegedly sexually molested two 12-year-old pupils a decade later. In a rubber room since 2003.

Salary: $94,145

[aquadog]

If a child is that disruptive and having that many discipline problems, can't you get social services involved? Sounds to me like there's probably something going on in the home (or rather, nothing going on in the home, at least in terms of handling a child who is obviously acting out).

A social worker can tell the parent to get the kid's shit together (or the parents' shit together, depending).

It can be REALLY hard to do that. You can file a CHINS on a family (Child in Need of Services) but that's usually done if a kid is under 16 and not showing up to school or there is OBVIOUS abuse going on. It's not very easy to just get social services involved because someone is a crappy parent. Parents get lawyers or educational advocates involved very quickly. You wouldn't believe how far the rights of parents/kids who are bad/lazy/etc are protected over the kids who are there to learn and do all of the right things. I've taught at a very good public high school for over 10 years and not one kid has been expelled in all of that time. The kid who does something HORRIBLE (from drugs to weapons) gets "expelled" but that technically means suspended for over 7 days. They all come back. And god forbid a kid on an ed plan gets suspended--then the school is required to pay for a tutor while the kid is suspended.

[azman5103]

If a child is that disruptive and having that many discipline problems, can't you get social services involved? Sounds to me like there's probably something going on in the home (or rather, nothing going on in the home, at least in terms of handling a child who is obviously acting out).

A social worker can tell the parent to get the kid's shit together (or the parents' shit together, depending).

Yes but that's kind of my point. Let's say I call social services. We will sit down and have multiple meetings. The focus of those meetings, at least on our part, will be what can THE TEACHERS do to get this kid on the right track. We will then spend several hours making suggestions....they can have extra time, they can go to tutoring, they can do extra credit, they can be put on a "behavior plan". After we have made all these suggestions and accommodations the social worker MIGHT say...."ok mom and dad, are you on board with this stuff?"....and then the meeting is over.

A month or so goes by...nothing changes...and we have another meeting. The meeting is never "the parents didnt follow through"....it is "well teachers...your ideas didnt work, come up with more/different ideas".

This can go on for months or even years. There is NEVER a point (at least that I have seen)...where the social worker says "The school has done everything they can...the problem is not being solved....take the kid out of the school because that's whats best for the REST of the students at the school".

Plus...all this time...while I as a teacher have now spent dozens of hours (unpaid btw) dealing with one little shit.....the honors students and good, hardworking kids have missed out on dozens of hours of my time and effort.

Again it proves my point. We spend WAY more time dealing with the "bad kids" and "bad parents" then we do dealing with the "good kids". If I was able to say...."take your kid to a different school where they will deal with their bullshit....my time is spent working with kids that want to learn and put in effort"....our schools would be a better place.

[Samurai]

Not sure I can really answer all those questions but I'll give it a shot.

#1- Its fairly difficult for a "lousy" teacher to get fired mid year, because there is usually no one to replace them. If they do something like touch a kid or something way out of line like that..then they would be gone right away. But if they just suck at their job...the more likely scenario is that they will not be offered a contract the next year. I have seen that happen with 3 people in my now 3 1/2 years of teaching. They were not offered contracts because they had done a terrible job.

Also, you HAVE to figure in what makes a teacher "lousy". It CANNOT be based solely on something like a standardized test score.. especially in a teachers first couple of years. A big part of teaching is learning how to take your knowledge of a subject, and turn that into something that students can identify with. Most "lousy" teachers, at least early on, have their biggest problems with classroom management and discipline They let the students walk all over them and you get situations where the inmates are running the asylum. No one learns anything. Real world classroom interaction and management are THE biggest things that they DON'T teach you in college..so a lot of people struggle with it early on. If a teacher is dedicated, and wants to get better...most districts will give you at least a couple years to "learn on the job" and get better in those areas. I actually think thats fair, because like I said..its a unique situation and takes classroom experience.

#2- I honestly don't know. It sure seems like too much goes to administrative overhead. All I know is that we don't get raises, we don't get any money to spend on supplies or materials, and we have increased the ammount that families have to pay for extra curricular stuff. (Football went from a 25$ fee in my first year to a 75$ fee in my 3rd year).

#3- Again, I can't answer 100% because I'm not privy to other people's evaluations. I will say that its pretty obvious if a teacher is passionate about their job. IMO you HAVE to be really knowledgeable and passionate about your subject....and you HAVE to enjoy working with kids. If you have those two things the other parts can be learned through experience. Like I said...a lot of teachers struggle with classroom management and discipline and that effects EVERYTHING. I will also say that if a teacher is busting their ass...it would be pretty hard to NOT be rated as highly effective. If you are actively trying to improve your performance...you will. If you are fine with being "average" then you will be. I think thats the same in most professions though.

#4- Overall...not very. Generally speaking...the "good kids"...the honors students and the students that are involved in sports/clubs/activities have really involved parents. When we have conferences...I can always guarantee I will get more parents of "A" students showing up then I will students with "D's and F's". The problem is that the "bad kids"...the kids that don't give a shit, fail every class, always get in trouble...are the ones that take up a majority of our time as teachers. We will have meeting after meeting to deal with a kid thats failing every class. Make a behavior plan, come up with dozens of ways for them to raise their grades, etc....and it rarely does any good because the parents don't give a shit. You will get parents that literally show up to a meeting and say "I can't do anything...what are you (teachers) going to do"....or "My kid doesn't do his homework, and when I ask him to he gets mad, slams his door and plays Xbox all night....what should I do?". There are times when you want to smash the parents in the face and say "DONT YOU REALIZE YOU'RE 90% OF THE PROBLEM"....but we can't do that.

The sad part is while we are having those 20 meetings about the "bad kids"...the REALLY good kids...the ones that have an incredibly bright future...they get left alone. The attitude is "Well, they are passing classes and not getting in trouble...so they aren't who we should be concerned about".

It would be so much better....for everyone....if schools were able to focus on the kids doing the right things. Maybe private schools can...but public schools have to take everyone. If we were able to call up a parent and say "You're kid has failed every class for 3 straight semesters, they are a disruption to everyone else in the classroom, and they have been in the principals office 8 times this year....THEY"RE GONE. Take your kid somewhere else...we don't tolerate that stuff here"...the production of the school as a whole would go WAY up.

If we were able to put that responsibility right back on the parents and say "Your kid can't attend this school because you are not doing your job as a parent"...we would start to see major changes.

Anyway..I know these posts are getting long and rambling...but those are the best answers I can give.

Thanks for the answers
#1.) Not sure how big your district is, but only three removals in 3 1/2 years seems kinda low. Doubt it matches a comparable organization in the private sector. Makes it pretty likely that some of your fellow teachers are over paid.
#2.) Here's where your teacher's union probably fucks you over. They should be leading the charge for a better balance (more for you and classrooms). But teacher's union leadership doesn't give a shit about you. High money flow, low accountability into the education bureaucracy is the union leadership goal. Because no matter what, a substantial portion of that money funnels indirectly into their pockets. If the admin-to-classroom funding ratio gets out whack, it doesn't really effect union leadership, so they don't care.
#3.) It's okay that you don't know. My real point is that ratings have to be a discriminator (ew, politically incorrect observation). If everyone is special, no one is special. It means some teachers are underpaid and some are overpaid.
#4.) I'm all for making it easier to expel shitty kids. I know bleeding hearts will say, "It's not the kid's fault. Figure out what's wrong. Deal with the parents." Perhaps for some of the marginal kids, but the fact is that not every person can be saved. Let charities, social services, and the rest of society worry about the shit heads. Dump them out of school and let teachers get back to teaching.

[Howards Wig]

#1- What does the profession of teaching do to lure in "A" students? <SNIP>

Yes you're right....its not ALL about the money...but until you treat teachers like professionals...people who have options but CHOOSE to become teachers...you are not going to attract the cream of the crop.

They flat out tell you..."If you want to make any money in education you need to get out of the classroom and into administration". That is the root of the problem right there. People that are smart and passionate...BUT ALSO want to earn a decent living, and provide for their own families are not incentivized to stay in the classroom.

The problem is, the group that is not treating the teachers like professionals is their own union. There is no merit pay. You keep complaining you do not get enough respect or pay, but it is your own entrenched system that is doing this to you! The public wants change! The majority of teachers and their union do not!

#2- Teachers are not showing up 5 mins before class and leaving 5 min afterwards. Teachers spend an ungodly amount of time in meetings and dealing with bullshit that really has nothing to do with teaching kids. Plus you are not aware of the time they have spent working outside of school. I know that I spend AT LEAST 2 hours every day working on school stuff while I am not at school. I might be writing lesson plans or grading or even "rehearsing" my lectures and lessons for the next day. Teachers do not have the option to collect overtime...so yea a lot of them leave the school and do their work from home.

Ha ha ha. Who makes overtime? Teachers talking about how much they work is like making your kid clean their room. They whine for an hour and then there is 10 minutes of work. It is already a short work day with lunch, breaks, and guess what... I actually see the parking lot and who shows up when.

It zaps the passion out of you pretty damn quick. Teachers are the least respected profession in the country IMO. We are expected to work for "the good of the community"...and then get shit on constantly by that same community.

Teaching is a highly respected profession. For the 10% of teachers who do an awesome job, and the other 20% doing a very good job, we all have the utmost admiration. They change lives. However, it is the 70% of people with guaranteed jobs served by the union who are undermining you. For every complaint you have, the problem comes down to teachers and their union. You want to blame the kids and the parents? Ridiculous. You are pushing those kids into schools where you know they will fail as a result of a union that has put in measures to ensure teachers are protected at the expense of the students.

Look at the post that started all this though. In what other profession would this be allowed to happen, never mind in a profession where adults are working with *children*. I would be fired so quick it would make my head spin. Not with the union though.

I am pretty sure we both want the same thing. However, to get there... it is the teaching profession that needs an overhaul.. not throwing away children who have been failed by the system you are a part of and protecting.

[azman5103]

Thanks for the answers
#1.) Not sure how big your district is, but only three removals in 3 1/2 years seems kinda low. Doubt it matches a comparable organization in the private sector. Makes it pretty likely that some of your fellow teachers are over paid.
#2.) Here's where your teacher's union probably fucks you over. They should be leading the charge for a better balance (more for you and classrooms). But teacher's union leadership doesn't give a shit about you. High money flow, low accountability into the education bureaucracy is the union leadership goal. Because no matter what, a substantial portion of that money funnels indirectly into their pockets. If the admin-to-classroom funding ratio gets out whack, it doesn't really effect union leadership, so they don't care.
#3.) It's okay that you don't know. My real point is that ratings have to be a discriminator (ew, politically incorrect observation). If everyone is special, no one is special. It means some teachers are underpaid and some are overpaid.
#4.) I'm all for making it easier to expel shitty kids. I know bleeding hearts will say, "It's not the kid's fault. Figure out what's wrong. Deal with the parents." Perhaps for some of the marginal kids, but the fact is that not every person can be saved. Let charities, social services, and the rest of society worry about the shit heads. Dump them out of school and let teachers get back to teaching.

#1- I was just talking about my school...which has 26 teachers. So we have "not retained" 3 teachers at my school in the last 3 years. I really don't agree that anyone actually in the classroom is overpaid. Our district pay scale for teachers tops out at about 67k a year...and that would only be with a Masters degree +60 hours (equivalent of a Doctorate)...and with about 25+ years experience. If you spend tens of thousands of dollars to continue your college education...and you stick with the same district for 25+ years..I don't see a problem with you making as much money as the manager of a fucking Wendy's.

#2- Most people involved in teachers unions are NOT teachers. They MAY have been teachers at some point in their careers...but quickly realized the real money was outside the classroom. I agree they don't really give a rat's ass about real teachers.

#3- Here is the problem with ratings (again I only am familiar with whats going on in AZ). They are completely one sided. The ratings that you get can ONLY be used to fire you....they cannot be used by the teachers to negotiate better pay. In AZ, every teacher gets a rating. If you are rated too low...you can be fired...but if you are rated highly, what do you get?? You get to keep your job for another year. If you are rated "highly effective"...you don't jump to some new payscale. You don't get to ask for a raise on your next contract. There is literally NO incentive to score higher than "what won't get me fired".

And another point about ratings, they don't take real world situations into account. You might have a teacher that is "highly effective" for 10 straight years...and then in year 11 just gets a bunch of shit heads. They spend 1/2 the year dealing with 10-20 asswipe kids and their parents...and it causes their rating to drop from "highly effective" to just "effective". Should that teacher lose money the following year?

Or let's say you get a teacher that gets 4 honors classes...thats all they teach. They have great test scores and great results because they have great students. Does that teacher deserve more money than the teacher that took on 4 classes full of shit heads and managed to get them to a "C" average? I would certainly argue that the 2nd teacher had the tougher job.

[aquadog]

I know that a lot of big districts--particularly the cities --have these powerful unions that let these crazy things happen. I also know that it isn't like that everywhere. My district and others around me have very weak unions. There isn't some big, high paying position for union leadership, it's just some full time teacher that gets an additional couple hundred bucks to act as president. The union leaders worry about administration backlash so they keep things low key and don't push for much. If teachers suck they get fired. People love to generalize about the unions but it's not always like that in your regular everyday suburban school. I dropped out of mine years ago--why would I pay $600 to an organization that won't get me a raise no matter how hard I work and won't protect me if a parent really wants to go on the attack. I'm fine for getting rid of unions and bringing on the merit pay--but don't get the impression that every union is like the one in NYC.

[azman5103]

The problem is, the group that is not treating the teachers like professionals is their own union. There is no merit pay. You keep complaining you do not get enough respect or pay, but it is your own entrenched system that is doing this to you! The public wants change! The majority of teachers and their union do not!



Ha ha ha. Who makes overtime? Teachers talking about how much they work is like making your kid clean their room. They whine for an hour and then there is 10 minutes of work. It is already a short work day with lunch, breaks, and guess what... I actually see the parking lot and who shows up when.



Teaching is a highly respected profession. For the 10% of teachers who do an awesome job, and the other 20% doing a very good job, we all have the utmost admiration. They change lives. However, it is the 70% of people with guaranteed jobs served by the union who are undermining you. For every complaint you have, the problem comes down to teachers and their union. You want to blame the kids and the parents? Ridiculous. You are pushing those kids into schools where you know they will fail as a result of a union that has put in measures to ensure teachers are protected at the expense of the students.

Look at the post that started all this though. In what other profession would this be allowed to happen, never mind in a profession where adults are working with *children*. I would be fired so quick it would make my head spin. Not with the union though.

I am pretty sure we both want the same thing. However, to get there... it is the teaching profession that needs an overhaul.. not throwing away children who have been failed by the system you are a part of and protecting.

Again..you are generalizing A LOT. I'm not sure where you live...but the teachers union DOES NOT have that kind of power in MOST states across the country. I can only use my experience as a teacher in AZ....but there are no "rubber rooms", there are no teachers making 100k+ PERIOD...let alone for doing nothing.

Lot's of professions make overtime. Shit..I got paid overtime when I worked selling shoes at Sears. The differences is that for a lot of professions when you leave the office or workplace you job is done. It is pretty much the requirement of a good teacher to put in time "off the clock". And...no it is not a short work day! At the very least it is a standard 8 hour day that MOST people across the country work. I am "on the clock" from 7am to 3pm...but that does not include the time that I HAVE to put in outside of school.

You can generalize all you want....but you are obviously talking about some specific teachers that you think you know. I have 120+ students. I give them a test....with some multiple choice..and some essays that require me to read them and give feedback to the students. How long do you think that takes to do? Do you honestly think that I can sit and whine for an hour and then get them graded in 10 min? In a week where a test is given...I HAVE to plan on at least 2 hours of grading per night for several nights until they are all done.

You saying you "see the parking lot"...and it's a short day because of "lunch" makes you look ignorant...and again you are generalizing to the extreme. I see a lot of cops just sitting in their cars...or driving around the streets! They aren't arresting people for their entire shift...so that means they must be lazy right? We should fire a lot of them but their damn union protects them!! whatever....

And to your final point. Teaching is not a highly respected profession. You NEVER hear stories about good teachers...only bad ones. You never hear the word "hero" or "community servant" thrown around like you do with cops or firefighters. Teachers are put on the same level as postal workers because most people have the attitude of "I could do that job...they are nothing special"...when in reality 75% of people COULD NOT be teachers. You would not last a month!

"You want to blame the kids and the parents? Ridiculous. You are pushing those kids into schools where you know they will fail as a result of a union that has put in measures to ensure teachers are protected at the expense of the students."
This line I honestly don't even understand? Who is pushing kids anywhere? I work in a public school...in a state where parents have the option of getting vouchers and taking their kids to charter schools. My entire argument was that we should be kicking kids out of schools for the benefit of the whole....and you somehow turn that into "forcing kids into schools where you know they will fail"??

The overwhelming majority of kids in public schools do not fail. I have 120+ students...and well over 100 of them are really good kids. Sure they are not all "A" students...but they are capable, hard working, respectful kids that show up every day ready to learn something new. There are 10 or so kids that DO NOT have that attitude. They are "F" students whose entire goal during the school day is to disrupt everyone else, teacher included. Those are the kids that should not be allowed to take up the time/resources of the teachers and the schools.

Again...you are generalizing so much its crazy. 90% + of teachers are teaching for the right reason. There are bad apples like there are in ANY profession in the entire world...but overwhelmingly teachers are good people that are trying to improve the lives of your kids. Public schools are not some detriment to society...they are one of the most important cogs. I'm pretty confident that you went to public school...I did...and I'm sure most people on this board did. A lot of those people then went on to college, and to prosperous jobs. If someone turned out a "failure" it wasnt the fault of the public school...it was THEIR OWN FAULT and more likely the fault of THEIR PARENTS.

[RiotGrip]

How is this teacher tenured after just one year teaching?

That was my first question, it usually takes 5 to 7 years or longer.

[Samurai]

#1- I was just talking about my school...which has 26 teachers. So we have "not retained" 3 teachers at my school in the last 3 years. I really don't agree that anyone actually in the classroom is overpaid. Our district pay scale for teachers tops out at about 67k a year...and that would only be with a Masters degree +60 hours (equivalent of a Doctorate)...and with about 25+ years experience. If you spend tens of thousands of dollars to continue your college education...and you stick with the same district for 25+ years..I don't see a problem with you making as much money as the manager of a fucking Wendy's.

#3- Here is the problem with ratings (again I only am familiar with whats going on in AZ). They are completely one sided. The ratings that you get can ONLY be used to fire you....they cannot be used by the teachers to negotiate better pay. In AZ, every teacher gets a rating. If you are rated too low...you can be fired...but if you are rated highly, what do you get?? You get to keep your job for another year. If you are rated "highly effective"...you don't jump to some new payscale. You don't get to ask for a raise on your next contract. There is literally NO incentive to score higher than "what won't get me fired".

And another point about ratings, they don't take real world situations into account. You might have a teacher that is "highly effective" for 10 straight years...and then in year 11 just gets a bunch of shit heads. They spend 1/2 the year dealing with 10-20 asswipe kids and their parents...and it causes their rating to drop from "highly effective" to just "effective". Should that teacher lose money the following year?

Or let's say you get a teacher that gets 4 honors classes...thats all they teach. They have great test scores and great results because they have great students. Does that teacher deserve more money than the teacher that took on 4 classes full of shit heads and managed to get them to a "C" average? I would certainly argue that the 2nd teacher had the tougher job.

azman, I want to agree with you on many things, but you are severely undercutting yourself here.

#1) Among your 26 fellow teachers, I am virtually certain that an independent body of evaluators could go in and find one or two who are doing a shitty job and ought to be fired or reduced in pay. Also, we all make choices in life. You work in a district where pay is topped at a $$$ amount you consider to be low. Move if you don't like it. It's still a sort of free country and you have the right to seek better pay elsewhere. You don't have the right to unilaterally implement better pay in your district just because you think it should be so.

#3) News Flash: ALL ratings systems in all public and private professions are flawed. But some are useful and all are necessary. Teachers unions fight tooth and nail against them. Not because teachers unions give a shit about good teachers. They don't. Teachers union leaders want stability and calm to maintain a steady and increasing flow of money to the education establishment. Ratings create turmoil. Ratings undercut seniority. Pretty soon the vile, unwashed public will start asking evil questions like, "why don't we get rid of a bunch of the teachers who consistently score below average?" The horror!

If lots of shitty teachers can get paid the same as you and the rest of the good teachers, it greatly reduces the prestige of your profession.

[GatGirl69]

I love this fucking site so god damn much. I get an honest to god intelligent debate about the education system while being able to mock Howard's wig.

Also got a great movie rec (waiting for superman).