Kinks better than the Beatles....

[pontius pilot]

Let me say first, I didn't dismiss them, it's just that the ones I always hear are about the societal importance and record sales. If we base it on that, it should go 1. Beatles 2. Elvis, and if we are going on U.K. sales T. Rex actually outsold the Beatles in their day during T. Rextasy. I don't think anyone should use record sales to base an argument about artistic quality on; one of my biggest gripes with Howard is that he does this. A great example was the fight that he and Fred had with the band Hum and the criticisms he has made since. I feel that you have to judge the music as music once the fog of economic concerns are lifted and it's really out there in the ether. Often the best music, literature and art is the least popular because it's difficult at first glance or the first listen. For instance, I would argue the best Pink Floyd albums were pre-Dark Side, even though their most successful albums were Dark Side and The Wall. To me, the Beatles music has a very produced, manufactured feel to it; it's technically proficient to be sure, but there's no real soul underneath. I would argue that the Stones are the opposite, they lack the technical proficiency of the Beatles, but for better or worse they lived it, it was real and it sounds real.

Second, as to the sell out accusation, I think Van Morrison is a great example. He started out doing a sort of pop act to pay the bills, and as soon as he had a modicum of success he used it to cut Astral Weeks and Moondance, two seminal albums that were commercial failures at least when they were released. He didn't do Wings, and he didn't become a pitchman, he resigned himself to being an alcoholic loner who played folk music. I think that the way you handle success, by using it to do something really challenging like Bowie's Berlin trilogy, or by moving more and more towards a commercial sound, tells you a lot. Imagine is a good song, but it's pretty ham fisted in terms of the lyrics and it wasn't technically ground breaking by any means. Doing a concept album with Brian Eno may not try and effect societal change, but it creates better music. Just my take, I respect your opinion as someone who lived through it; like I said, I didn't, I can only go on the records they cut and you're more than entitled to disagree.

[HowieStearn]

wtf

[Robert Higgins]

You cannot be serious, can you? Listen, watch, learn.

[Odd Vaark]

Herman's Hermits. > Beatles > Zombies > Kinks

[wigtropolis]

I could honestly say that I listened to this album more than any Beatles or Stones record.

[HatemanLives]

I like the Kinks lyrics and worldview more than anyone of that period but I never thought their songs were "right". Their melodies were all kind of samey-samey to me. I realize their greatness as musicians but they were always lacking something. The Beatles might have been trite at times but the melodies were right there. I don't know how to explain it.

Then again, I put the Zombies up there with all of these guys... so maybe my tastes go towards that pop-emo shit.

[stevhorn]

What is this Kinks are better than the Beatles bullshit?! I was a Kinks fan from the beginning...I've owned every LP up to Schoolboys in Disgrace, seen them twice in concert in the mid-70s, but come on...the Beatles set the high water mark for every rock/pop artist since 1964.

[whatsit]

The beatles are great... until you realize they spawned all the shitty pop music today. That should definitely count against them

blasphemy

[HowieStearn]

ok lets assume that on this thread the Kinks are better than the Beatles. We will also assume the majority of the planet disagrees with you.

[itpdude]

Fuck the British.

Never have forgiven them for bombing Pearl Harbor.

[HowieStearn]

Fuck the British.

Never have forgiven them for bombing Pearl Harbor.

those sneaky bastards..

[newcastlefan]

thoughts? concerns? tribulations?

hi MM. does Lenny know you use this account now?

[Jim Lahey]

You can't buy intelligence and you can't buy musical talent. That being said, think of each great song that these bands wrote as a huge MMA fighter.

In a street brawl, the Beatles would have 50-60 ultimate badasses, maybe more. That has to win. However, the Kinks, the Who, the Stones and even the Doors would have between 10-30 each. As much as I love any group after that, anyone left over (Zep, Ten Years After, Tull, ELP, Grand Funk, even T Rex) wouldn't have more than a handful of truly bad badasses. So who did I leave out?

[Vashier]

I think the stones would have more than 30, and I'm not a huge stones fan.

[Jim Lahey]

I'm a big Stones fan and I just watched that documentary a couple of days ago, very good. I don't know how many they'd have but if I have time later I'll try to work up some raw numbers. And I'm not talking about shit I like, just songs that a majority of people would admit were really good.

[IlluminatiJones]

I think the stones would have more than 30, and I'm not a huge stones fan.

the Stones have more than double that, maybe triple............but I am a huge Stones fan

the Stones are clearly the greatest rock 'n roll band that ever was or will be

the Beatles were master craftsmen, and the greatest pop band that ever was or will be

it's apples and oranges, really....................and maybe it simply came down to the fact that one band let women get the best of them and come between them, while the other did not...................but i think these two things are beyond discussion or dispute

and after that, almost anything goes.......................although I'd put Bowie (easily) and Zep (reluctantly, but come on, man!) ahead of the Kinks, even though I do love the Kinks

the Kinks were an anomaly; they could do both pop and rock 'n roll, and they were there at the beginning, yet lasted long enough to get into heavy rotation in the early days of MTV. no small feat.

I love that a drunken, non-photoshop post by Pontius kicked off this discussion.

[Snotty]

Fuck the British.

Never have forgiven them for bombing Pearl Harbor.

That was the Germans ....Ya' moron!!!!!

[Snotty]

The Kinks had a period for me......Early to mid eighties.........Earlier than that....MEH